Articles can't be all in the first person like this one. Also, I don't think we want to be in the position of essentially handing out financial advice, which can get us in trouble if someone has a bad experience, misinterprets something, or actually some bad or outdated advice. But I think a page with general advice about managing your loans from Korea, with links to qualified advice-givers, would be the way to go. Thoughts?--Hater Depot 07:16, 2 September 2006 (CEST)

Just a quick cut and paste to get it up there before I lost the text. I'll hack at it later. Under US law you can't get into trouble for publishing bad advice. You have to do a little more before you are considered practicing law without a license. I thought Galbijim was going to be more relaxed than wikipedia and I think it has to be to fulfil it's mission. --Dogshed 19:18, 2 September 2006 (CEST)

I hacked at it. I think the advice should be left in. It's the consensus advice that most financial advisors tell clients if they know anything about student loans. --Dogshed 20:02, 2 September 2006 (CEST)

Galbijim is more relaxed than the wiki. Hence why people are putting up restaurants and contact info, among other things. But there are many things that we do that wikipedia does and we will not waver from. Such as marginalizing first person articles. I also don't like seeing hearsay advice of 'It's the consensus advice that most financial advisors tell clients...'. Now we have to get into questioning your merits of how many financial advisors you've spoken to, to justify claims like this. One of the biggest reasons why we started the wiki is to move away from this kind of stuff. If you must, then cite example passages from financial advisors websites. But don't put up any of your own 'trust me, I've talked to xyz amount of advisors'. Hell, I used to be an assistant investment advisor at a Canadian bank and I know well enough not to come onto my own site and put up that kind of advice. I'll give you a little more time to clean this up.--Galbijim 03:21, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Advice is fine but even better if sourced. Instead of 'giving time' to clean something up though it's better to attach a tag to parts of an article that seem to be in doubt so that the reader knows too that something may be in doubt. There's the {{disputed}} tag for example if the content itself is in doubt, and we could probably bring in a few others from Wikipedia such as the cleanup tag which is what Hater Depot was originally talking about. mithridates aka 데이빛 03:48, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Just about everything I've read or heard on getting out of debt says to pay off higher interest loans first like credit cards. Now it may be that all these sources are just repeating each other but it makes sense to me. I would think there would be a way to point out the obvious advantage to paying off higher interest debt first without actually quoting a source.

As for the keep 6 months of salary in liquid form I'm sure I could search the net for some sources. Maybe I can add a sources needed until I find one.

As for paying less on student loans because they are flexible. That is an opinion and how much interest is worth some flexibility?

Can I put an article on my blog, call it Jeff's Student Loan Advice, and then we put a link to it?

I suppose one could argue that should pay them off first because they they are unsecured loans they are not dischargable under bancruptcy.

When you mentioned working in Canada it reminded me that the article should probably make it clearer that I'm only talking about US student loans.

--Dogshed 23:30, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Yes, I think cautionary tags are in order, but I also think that the time to best shape and reshape an article is when it first gets put up. Especially concerning huge subjective areas like financial planning and money management.--Galbijim 04:00, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Anything happening with this? It's not acceptable in its current form.--Galbijim 17:30, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Locking the article does not help me or anyone else address your concerns. Locking an article is usually used for revert wars or vandalism. --Dogshed 22:57, 3 September 2006 (CEST)

Usually used? Where? On Wikipedia? Check the URL and remember that this is a privately-owned site using mediawiki software. Yes, we use some of the things that Wikipedia uses to help shape the community, but this is a totally different kettle of fish. Some random guy giving financial loans advice to ESL teachers based on hearsay from 'many financial planners' without citing examples doesn't cut it. Period. The article is locked until confidence is had that you get this message.--Galbijim 02:17, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I'm not sure what you want me to do. I, or someone else even, could attempt to address your concerns by editing the article if you unlock it. --Dogshed 02:25, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I'd first like to know what you plan on doing to clean this article up. Will it be based on Wikipedia site policy or will it be on Galbijim.com's site direction that financial or legal advice should not be so freely given without citing from professionals.--Galbijim 03:10, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I've made comments on this page above and you have not given any counter comments therefore I have now way of knowing what kind of edits will or will not violate your policy. You could post some counter comments to the ones I have pasted above which might possibly lead us towards greater understanding.--Dogshed 03:39, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I don't care about fighting you on all subfronts. I'm stating one thing that cannot and will not be circumvented. Ever. 'Hearsay' advice saying things like 'most' or 'almost all' financial advisors say blah-blah-blah. That doesn't pass the mustard without citing sources. A great example of how we deal with subject matter like this is what was done with Tax issues for Canadian expats. Linked references were given and even a disclaimer was added by the author and instruction on where readers can further educate themselves. Aim for something like that.--Galbijim 04:02, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

Maybe the best thing to do now would be for us to compare sources. You could gather a list of places where you've gotten your data from and Galbijim could as well - to be honest I haven't been paying attention to this page (finances aren't my cup of tea) but I know that providing sourcing is often an easy way to avoid an edit conflict. mithridates aka 데이빛 03:50, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I've got no interest in the advice that is being said and a need to go find sources to refute or support it. That's not what this is about. Contributors coming on here and giving advice on where to go shopping for cheese, based on what others have told them. Ok. But doling out financial or legal advice carries a lot more need for caution for readers than someone who might end up going to the wrong cheese store. One of the founding reasons for the creation of this site and its content development goals is to counter the "watercooler talk" subjectiveness on topics such as this, on eslcafe. And its going to take a 9.2 scale earthquake to get us to regress from that. 98% of everything else that we put up is fine. Just not issues like this.--Galbijim 04:20, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

While you were typing that I did a quick search and found a Kiplinger's article says to pay off higher interest debt first. It says to pay off all debt before doing any saving but then says in "step 2" that "good debt" is the exception and that you can put money in savings while paying "good debt" including student loans. --Dogshed 04:07, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

That's a good start. Take a look at Tax issues for Canadian expats for a model and start thinking how you want to properly address this subject. Thanks--Galbijim 04:20, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I can't do anything until you do something. You can make counter comments on my coments above, unlock the article and comment on my changes or do nothing. If you restore the link you removed and unlock the article we might be able to attract more editors that have a better understanding of what is needed. --Dogshed 05:08, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

Look at the edits that I've shaped the article into. This is the direction that the article should go in. If you deviate from that with more unsupported hearsay, the article will be locked again and possibly deleted altogether. Advising you on site direction and content aims should not require the continuous pulling of teeth and certainly not a debate such as this. I've temporarily unprotected the article. Please respect and follow the direction that has been explicitly laid out on this issue--Galbijim 05:28, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

Contents 1 Changing focus 2 External Links 3 Hidden text 4 To do list

[edit] Changing focus

Personally I think an article about student loans on a Korea-centric site should have a Korea-centric focus. I don't see that in this article right now. As I said above, I would really like to see advice on managing your loan from Korea -- does the time difference have an effect on when you can contact people? Are there certain, Korea-specific issues you really need to be aware of? Like, making sure that the loan company knows how to contact you, or things like that -- for example, my girlfriend just got mail from Sallie Mae, who thinks the previous tenant still lives there and owes them a couple hundred bucks. I've never paid off a student loan (just canceled one) so I don't feel like I want to jump in and edit, but financial advice can be gotten plenty of other places. You get a good amount of great, free advice when you sign up with Sallie Mae, for instance. But I doubt there is any place to get such Korea-specific info. I'll try a search though.--Hater Depot 05:19, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

Some of what your are asking for would require calling loan companies on the phone and asking them questions. I'm not sure how to cite that. --Dogshed 05:38, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

How about shaping the content of the article around sources that you can cite on the internet?--Galbijim 05:42, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

Anything acceptable here as a source would be fine here. mithridates aka 데이빛 05:39, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I agree with the sentiment that an article such as this should be only speaking from a Korean expat perspective, more along the lines of managing your loan payments from abroad. But we don't need to get into all this financial advice stuff, when a simple addition of:

[edit] External Links

• www.managingyourstudentloans.com
• www.studentloanadvice.com

...would easily solve all of this.--Galbijim 05:39, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

When I'm done with moving I'll post some stuff on my blog and then we can cite that. Would that be kosher? Unfortunately my blog login is pack in a box at my mothers house. --Dogshed 08:10, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

The purpose of citing sources on a financial topic is to refernce from which expert or financial website you are gathering your research to shape your article. Writing something on your blog and then coming on here to cite your blog as a source isn't the same. That's just like echoing your hearsay.--Galbijim 08:43, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

And after reading what you are putting up now, we are moving further and further away from this being a Korean-centric article. Please try to keep things in terms of a Korean expat perspective, because now it just reads like a Wikipedia article and not something for Galbijim.--Galbijim 08:47, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

The more I read the more stuff I find. I agree it is offbase. Furthermore, I think it would violate the Wikipedia rules because it's more like a howto. I think we should put a big fat disclaimer on it and then use the forums to invite other people to contribute. --Dogshed 10:26, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

[edit] Hidden text

I've hidden the disputed text, and suggest we unlock the page, edit the text together and then show the text again once we come to an agreement. Well except for me because I know nothing about finances and student loans. Admins, your opinion? mithridates aka 데이빛 05:29, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

I've unlocked the article and restored it to be inclusive of where sources should cited, so he can understand the framework of what needs to be worked with for this article to exist in its current state. --Galbijim 05:33, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

It should be no problem. All a person has to do is hit edit to see the text and I've added a note. mithridates aka 데이빛 05:38, 4 September 2006 (CEST)

[edit] To do list

• Add information about student loans from other countries.
• Add more stuff specific to paying from Korea or living in Korea.
• Finding good links to refer user to. --Dogshed 10:43, 4 September 2006 (CEST)